Wednesday, June 29, 2016

A Sea of Thoughts: Because I Hate it

Lady Grey's comments really got my mental gears turning on this.  This is one of those cases where I feel like trying to understand the D/s dynamic and submissive response is buried under many complicated layers.

I've scraped the surface of this in the past and my tears post after Reflections covered it a bit.

If I had to describe my greatest submissive need, I would say it is subspace.  Not the masochistic high  that is sometimes described after pain or impact play, but straight up "mental bondage."  I crave to be forced into the deep end of the pool.  To sink into its depths and feel my ego die and persona shift catering entirely to her.

Unfortunately with subspace, our triggers eventually become ordinary.  If we are no longer bothered by them to the same extent mentally/emotionally and if we have confidence in our abilities to endure and perform with those triggers present, they just don't sting in the same way.  Our emotional capacity adapts.  It requires something else to "get us there."

Now don't get me wrong, simple sets of rules, rituals, and behaviors are enough to push me into subspace and enjoy waiting on a woman hand and foot, pleasuring her, worshipping her, and loving her with my entire being.  Here I am referring to that place where I mentally adhere to the ideas that she determines what is right or wrong, deserved or undeserved, and so on.  This is the place where she truly becomes a Goddess.

Over the years I have noticed a few trends in dynamics that often get treated as being the same, when they are in fact a little bit different.  Namely, there is a difference between doing something you don't want to do vs. doing something you have said you don't want to do.

An easy example of this is ordering a sub to wear panties.  This will likely embarrass him a bit, make him self-conscious, and while wearing them, he is likely to be more docile and obedient.  I believe the resulting change in behavior and attitude/demeanor are his mind coping with doing something he did not want to do.  He didn't ask to wear panties, the choice was forced on him.  He doesn't want to wear panties, but the thought of being disobedient is worse.  While he accepts this rationally, it affects him internally, pushing him into a new form of subspace.  At its root, I believe this is an example of what happens when you are forced to do something you do not want to do.  The reasons may differ, avoiding punishment, wanting to please her, etc. but it does require coping. 

There is a deeper level of this and I think this is what tends to "do it" for my subspace the most.  Taking that same example, let's say that at the beginning of the relationship the sub stated outright that any type of feminization was a soft limit.  That is, panties would be something they would not reject, but it is something they wished to avoid unless she REALLY wanted it or had a very good reason for it.  If she orders him to wear panties under these terms, the sub has to deal with the same emotional hurdles as the previous example, but it's magnified by the fact that he overtly stated it was something he did not want. 

From my experiences this forces the brain into an even more difficult position.  "She knew I didn't want this and she did it anyways."  This is fairly jarring emotionally.  It stings worse than the previous case.  It has a stronger effect on a sub and their space. 

What can follow is also very critical in how this affects the sub.  In most cases, I believe if a Domme chooses to push a sub past known soft limits, she will generally share a reason  as to why (he may ask or she may share it openly).  The reason given can dull or increase the sting.  If she responds with "I wanted to increase the power of my dominance and the depth of your submission," or "I want you to be more docile," these are reasons that a submissive can process logically and agree with. 

There are an entire spectrum of responses that reinforce the D/s dynamic and vary the intensity of feelings within a sub.  The "better" the reason she provides, the easier it is to bear.  The more the sub can use logic to agree to it, the less it will torture him inside.
"Because it amuses me." -> I bear with it because I would not want to deprive her pleasure.
"Because it's cute when you blush." -> I bear with it because it touches her and feeds her dominance.
"Because I like to see you squirm." -> I bear with it because it feeds her dominance.

At some point of increasing intensity we reach a line in the sand where it requires more emotional sacrifice to handle it.
"Because I felt like it."
"Because I can."
"Because I was bored."
"There is no reason."

As this continues we approach the final line in the sand.  At this point a sub can no longer rationalize it. 
"Because you don't want to do it."
"Because it makes you uncomfortable."

And at the very bottom lies: "I'm making you do this because I know that you hate it."

I can't think of a reason that would sting worse than this.  This reason alone is enough to push things deep into subspace, no matter what the activity is, hell it could be eating badly prepared lima beans.  It just leaves you feeling completely defeated. 

Looking back upon why pegging is showing up in fs01 when I/he hates it... I think it's in order to live vicariously as I write and remember the feeling of my spirit being crushed as I endured something that was a hard limit of mine for 7 years.  I hated it, it felt terrible, it made me feel terrible inside... but it also pushed me so far into the deep end that I felt... completely 100% owned.


  1. Yes....

    This level isn't talked about often. I agree with what you've written. It is the same thing I seek and which I crave deep within my soul.

    Most people don't understand this dynamic at all. Which brings it's own set of frustration and isolation.

    For a long time, I've strongly felt that D/s at least at this depth has an inherently addictive component for B/both. My guess is it a result of the chemicals the body releases in response to the pain/pleasure combination. And that the body physiologically habituates so that the need for more and more intensity increases in order to obtain the same mental/emotional/cognitive states.

    The fact that I believe this is addictive for B/both is quite disturbing to me as I have trouble seeing how safe/sane boundaries can be maintained over time. So then it is RACK which is fine, but if there is a steady increase in such extreme areas of play (life?) then it seems either one of the participants stops and leaves due to discomfort with such extremes, or they continue until things run off the track.

    I want to be wrong about this, but I’m not convinced I am.

    Yes, a strong, centered Domme can be anchored, and I think that is the best hope, but I think I do reluctantly believe that power corrupts. I don’t know, it is one of the things that haunts me.

    You’ve touched a bit on cognitive dissonance, which I agree is a central part of mental enslavement.

    When I’ve tried to look deeper into some of the ways in which such enslavement can be established, it led me to other things that are permanently troubling yet not enough for me to forsake the soul-level-need I feel for internal enslavement.

    In my opinion it leads to many of the same techniques which are labelled abusive. Of course they ARE abusive when they are non-consensual. And what we are talking about IS consensual.

    OK, so far so good.

    BUT what happens when though internal enslavement, the submissive reaches the place where he no longer can withdraw his consent? Then where is he?

    This happened to me once in my life. It took about 4 years to reach that place.

    It did not end well, yet after a couple of years of recovery-time, I can’t help but crave returning to that place. I am VERY aware of the dangers, but that path is the only time in my life I have ever felt fully alive.

    You might want to take a look at a book entitled: “Coercive Control” by Evan Stark. It focuses on psychological methods to enslave someone. You may find it useful in your writing.

    1. Thank you, Watson.

      It's odd in that I do feel it is addictive but in an odd way. It's more like there's an inherent emptiness in my heart and these feelings fill it in. What should be disturbing actually makes me feel more closely connected to my abuser. I think a lot of it is trust-based in that it shows they understand me, will be there to watch over me, and in the end, love me for enduring it.

      I can't tell if the dependence on escalating intensity is chemical or simply a matter of acclimation. e.g. there is usually some anxiety when experiencing something new and unfamiliar until you have done it enough to know what to expect, such as starting a new job, moving to a new state, etc.

      Chemical makes sense, but I think the "need" in general for this type of subspace may be rooted just as much in psychological damage. I do not know many people who crave this.

      I do agree that an anchored Domme is necessary for this. I have only met a handful over the years who crave this type of control. Most of them were able to maintain limiters on themselves, mostly rooted in appreciation for the love and devotion of the sub. In a case where I saw the Domme continuously push limits and drive down this road, there was the protection of a long-standing marriage.

      I don't really know about reaching that point of being unable to withdraw consent because I haven't ever experienced this long enough to reach that. It is scary though.

      I know that in my case, reaching this point happened infrequently enough where it was not a place that I would linger in for very long, nor was it forced to get there more often than once a week or so. The part that disturbs me the most is that I think about and crave the feelings associated with my limits being shattered and a harsher and harsher sting of cruelty. I think that's why there are so many things showing up repeatedly in fs01 that are things that I actually do not like.

    2. I agree there is likely a huge psychological component to the addiction as well...though I think even those ultimately go to chemistry but who knows?

      Your words of “the inherent emptiness in your heart and those feelings filling it in” is exactly, exactly what I feel.

      For me too, what should be disturbing actually makes me feel more closely connected to my abuser.

      And your last sentence too--sorry--that entire paragraph is how I’ve felt all of my life.

      I also agree that the original need for this dynamic is rooted in psychological trauma. I believe this is something quite different from the run-of-the-mill D/s in which studies have shown D/s practitioners to be just fine, which I do believe. (And for that matter I believe they are better adjusted than the general population at least in certain areas.)

      One of the differences is you mentioned going in and out of “that” place no more than once a week or so. In my situation it was a very gradual but immersive process. One that was gradually and increasingly isolating which mixing pain with great pleasure and a sense of being completely understood. Eventually the other things in my life that didn’t fit with the process started to feel less real.

      It is very much a crazy-making place.

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  3. It did make me think about my interactions with previous subs. It was common for him to ask "why". It was often not worded as why until the next day on the phone or during a chat. There were a few times when why was asked before a certain thing did or did not happen. If asked before the answer was always "I will not tell you, because you do not need to know. If you would like, we may discuss it when it is over". I can see how this reaction would condition him to wait until a later point to ask me why I did something, made him do something, or refused something.

    I also thought about different responses I have given. Sometimes I may give many reasons for doing something. Sometimes I may just give one. I can understand how a submissive would mentally digest more logical reasons easily.

    There is always a reason for what I do. Granted it is not always oriented toward a goal that he knows he is working toward. But the reason is there all the same. Sometimes it is not related to any goal. It could be as simple as seeing his choice given two undesirable options, or my pleasure in seeing him blush.

    I gave some thought to the phrase "because I knew you would hate it" and it translates in my mind as a form of punishment. But I would never dream up something that didnt give me some level of pleasure. For example, he may hate eating lima beans but I may enjoy getting a reaction from him and I do see the potential that this has on his depth of subspace. It would also serve as a reminder that I can control EVERYTHING. Losing choice in small things like what you wear, eat, do with your time and money can remind a person of his place and the kindness that has been taken for granted.

    1. Thank you, Miss Lily. I appreciate your insights. Learning to appreciate kindness and freedom is a big part of it.

      I'm not one to ask for reasons unless it is something major and life-changing. I think it is scariest in these situations when a Domme takes pleasure in giving cruel reasons knowing they cause greater inner-turmoil.

    2. Yes, I'm a big questioner too...I do it in my life in general partly from being curious and loving to learn but in a scene, my questioning is to help me stay grounded, which she may not want for me at a certain time and/or to get more information so I can be maximally pleasing also something she may not want, at least then.

      Often in those times a "because I said so" puts an end to the questions at least any I dare verbalize.

      You are of course completely right that occasional reminders that she controls everything are very helpful, reminding the submissive to be grateful for things it might otherwise take for granted.

  4. It seems to me that both you, fur, and Watson are dealing with the strange attraction that occurs deep inside of you when a hard limit is set aside by your Dom, and you are forced to endure what heretofore had been unthinkable. The thought of this happening is both terrifying and frighteningly attractive. It's, by definition, non-consensual, yet there it is, it's happening anyway and whether your Dom gives you a reason or brushes you off with a "because you hate it" explanation - which implies her own jump up into total sadism - you are now in new territory that perhaps you secretly wanted to experience when you pronounced this item as a "hard" limit in the first place.

    In other words, a "please don't throw me in the briar patch" type of thing, where you really wanted to be in that briar patch all along. What are your thoughts on that, boys?

    1. Thank you, Lady Grey.

      This is a very difficult feeling to understand since it defies rationale by such a wide margin. I think your description of "jump into total sadism" is probably strongly at the root of it. A lot of this does not have to pertain to hard limits specifically. Going back to the lima bean example, if she knows I hate them and then puts me on a full lima beam diet... I would hate it but it would probably make me love her more.

      Feeling completely controlled, owned, and the like. Having been abandoned in life many times over, that is a constant fear in the back of my mind. If a Domme is willing to go that far... it tends to feel like she will keep me (it is a similar feeling when I think/write about locks).

      Using your briar patch example, I do not wish to be in the briar patch, but I do wish to be with someone who would be willing to put me there, and may do so for any imaginable reason. It gives an "off-balance" and unpredictable feeling inside that cannot happen without a bit of true fear.

      I think my use of certain activities in fs01 are my vicarious exploration of these ideas.

      This is my best assessment of it... but I cannot say for sure if it is the underlying truth within myself.

  5. Lady Grey,

    Your first paragraph felt exactly right to me--except for the last half of the last sentence. And maybe I'm nit-picking...I can't tell.

    For me it is definitely not about secretly hoping some hard limit will be broken. In fact she did break one hard limit at one point. It was done intentionally and plan-fully on her part and I still struggle with the fact that I allowed? her, that she was able to break that limit (not at all sure how to phrase it because it felt and was consensual-non-consensual.) That particular limit remains a hard limit for me and I am often haunted by the fact that happened. Haunted both by being squicked by the event and more by the fact that she brought me to agreement. It is a profoundly troubling memory that randomly returns.

    But what maybe fits exactly with your briar patch analogy, is that there is a way in which I want (hard to explain) I want her to have to power to consume me for her to break any limit she might choose.

    The rational part of me does not want that. But deep inside I have a longing to surrender in an absolute sense, to not have a sense-of-myself but to have that overlaid by whatever she wills.

    It is a hot fantasy.

    I'm not thrilled that I crave that in reality; that I have experienced it and that I crave it again. I am not self-destructive at least intentionally.

    But that blending into, being subsumed by another is what I crave.

    Which makes finding someone who understands at all, quite difficult and finding someone not either psychopathic or overly-narcissistic, nearly impossible. Though I continue to search with some success.

  6. This from fur: "but I do wish to be with someone who would be willing to put me there, and may do so for any imaginable reason".

    This from Watson: "I want her to have to power to consume me for her to break any limit she might choose."....and : "The rational part of me does not want that. But deep inside I have a longing to surrender in an absolute sense, to not have a sense-of-myself but to have that overlaid by whatever she wills".

    So, it seems the briar patch analogy has resonance for both of you, even if you never actually said the words, or anything like them. In discussing this in the past with my husband, I find that he disagrees. He insists that our hard limits must remain inviolable, and assures me that he has no desire to test that agreement. The two basic tenets in question here are:
    1. No forced sexual contact with the opposite sex
    2. No permanent scarring or injuring of his body

    In addition, we both agreed to be true to each other and our marriage. In other words, no cheating.

    I don't know if the nature of our hard limits have relevance for you gentlemen, but I believe it doesn't really matter what your specific hard limits are, as we're talking more about a concept than about any particulars. Whatever, my husband seems to have a different viewpoint here. How interesting.

    As for me, the potential heartless sadist, would I force the issue? Would I be the one to break the hard limit rule? Would I force him to confront his fears, "just because I know he'd hate it"? Even for just a teensy bit of time just to see what happens? Well, I'll let you ponder that question, and can only say that, so far, I haven't done so and have no plans of doing so. Whether it's in the realm of possibility, well......time will tell, won't it?

    1. Thank you again, Lady Grey. I too have a couple of "unbreakable" limits, one of which is the same as Karl's no sexual contact with other men. It is a strong enough limit for me that I have avoided relationships where that would have been expected. What is scary about the place in my mind is that I do not know how I would hold up if I was in a relationship and that were given as an ultimatum.

      In general though it has been my own choice to relax hard limits. Soft limits I pretty much expect them to be broken.

      Honestly, I turn into such a mess inside when pushed into a deep state I have no clue what would happen.

    2. Lady Grey,

      You do understand. Though for some reason it makes me squirm the way you've stated it. But yes you are exactly right it is about a general concept rather than any particulars, which I believe is different from most other people. Thank you for your thoughts.

  7. This thread is completely fascinating and terrifying at the same time. Thanks for articulating your thoughts like this.

    1. Thank you for reading. These are often difficult feelings to try and understand. It is good to be able to talk about them with others.

    2. This has been fascinating to follow. It is very much outside of my experience though.